PODCAST EP. 378: Inside a Bird Dog's Mind: Canine Senses, Training, and Behavior

Speaker 1 (00:50.632)

Welcome to On the Wing Podcast presented by Purina Pro Plan. A few weeks back, I was in St. Louis meeting at the Purina World Headquarters. Well, I don't know if it's a world headquarters, it's US headquarters, anyways, in St. Louis. And I got to chatting with our buddy Carl Gunzer. Lots of folks know Carl Gunzer. He's my co-host at the Bird Dog Parade at National Pheasant Fest and Quail Classic.

And he runs the relationship with all the conservation groups for Purina Pro Plan. And I asked Carl, I want to get inside the head of our bird dogs, Carl. Do you have anybody that I can chat with on the podcast? And his answer is this week's guest. How's that for an introduction, Andy? We've got Dr. Annie Valuska, Purina's pet behaviorist.

Who boasts more than 20 years of experience as an applied scientist who serves as the voice of the pet at Purina. And as we get rolling, I also want to give a shout out to my buddy Tony Peterson, formerly of Sporting Dog Talk Podcast and now at Meat Eater. Tony did a terrific podcast, had an interview with Annie.

On episode 105 of Sporting Dog Talk. I'll encourage all of our listeners to also go out and check Tony's conversation with Annie. I listened to that episode three times in preparation for today's conversation. so I'm really thrilled to have Annie. This is a kind of a unique opportunity, a little bit different conversation than we normally have. But joining me are a couple of regulars punching their

Co-hosting Frequent Flyer Cards, Ryan Sparks, editor of Quail Forever Journal, and the voice of the Upland Newsroom, Casey Sill. Fellows, thank you very much for for joining me today. Annie, let's start with you. Tell us a little bit about just your background. Tell us the Annie Valuska backstory before we get into your career and what you do for a living.

Speaker 2 (03:13.486)

Sure. so I I have a PhD in animal behavior from University of California, Davis. While I was there, I studied laboratory rabbit welfare, specifically their aggressive behavior. A lot of people are surprised to find out that they can be so mean to each other, but they can. I was trying to reduce the aggression using olfactory cues. then I stuck with the captive animal welfare theme and did my postdoctoral work at Disney's Animal Kingdom in Orlando, Florida.

So working with a wide variety of exotic animals, a lot of different bird species, maribou storks, Tibeta golden weavers were a few of my favorites, also elephants, tigers, gorillas, really the gamut. and then I traded that for dogs and cats and joined Purina in twenty thirteen and have been with the company ever since.

Speaker 1 (04:05.974)

You you mentioned, you know, in the interview with Tony Peterson about, you know, your time kinda in the at the aquarium, the me the zoo sort of world. That wasn't really for you. it it sounds like Perrina's the opposite of that. you found sort of a How how big a difference does the animals that you're working with?

making your sa level of satisfaction. Like you you work with a v wide variety of things in other jobs, but now you're working pretty specifically with dogs and and cats.

Speaker 2 (04:41.25)

Yes. So I I was a little worried about that transition, worried that I I could be more bored at Purina than I was at Disney. But you know, for as long as we've been co-evolving with dogs and cats, you know, thousands of years by all estimates, we are still learning so, so much about them. So I have not gotten bored. There are still tons of unanswered questions about dog and cat behavior.

and so it's it's been fun. I'm looking forward to hopefully another thirteen years with the company.

Speaker 1 (05:14.988)

You mentioned in again in the the conversation with Tony Peterson about that evolution where dogs and humans have sort of evolved together. How early does that date back where dogs have been partners with Homo sapiens?

Speaker 2 (05:35.278)

So by some estimates, up to forty thousand years ago, we can see the process of domestication starting with dogs. So a pretty long, long time.

Speaker 1 (05:48.214)

It it was it for companionship or was it for a purpose like you know, the what we're gonna talk a lot today is the relationship bird hunters have with their bird dogs. Was that the genesis of the relationship where dogs and humans were together to put food over the fire? Or was it friendship or how did it originate or don't do you do you even are you even

Speaker 2 (06:18.028)

That's a great question. There are still two competing theories for how domestication started. One theory that you're alluding to is that we purposefully domesticated dogs and that we did that by essentially stealing puppies from their wolf ancestor and raising them. I actually think there's more evidence, and I am a bigger fan of the commensal argument, which is essentially saying that dogs.

Dogs made this decision. They decided to domesticate themselves, and that it it happened almost collaboratively as those proto-dogs were willing to approach human settlements because they were interested in our resources, which is to say our food. and so there's there's natural variability in behavior in any species. That's the name of the game. and so of course, some of those ancestral wolves would have been a little bit

bolder, a little less shy, maybe a little less fearful of humans and willing to approach and take advantage of our extra food, of the safety maybe that our settlements afforded. And if those proto-dogs were able to thrive better and were more likely to successfully reproduce and survive, then they would have passed those same bold social genes onto their offspring.

those offspring would have survived and reproduced. And it was over that process that we end up with the dogs that we have today. So that initial domestication would have been again, kind of both humans and dogs working together. And then the purpose breeding for hunting companions or just companionship would have happened a little later along the line.

Speaker 3 (08:07.564)

Never heard that the first theory before about you know purposefully domesticating them. What folks who are sort of in that camp, not that they're two completely separate camps, but what evidence or theories do they present that would speak to us purposefully like going out and taking wolf pups out of you know out of wild packs for the sole purpose of domestication? I've I've never I've never heard that before.

Speaker 2 (08:33.771)

I am admittedly not as familiar with that theory because I I do think that the preponderance of evidence is leaning more and more towards

Speaker 3 (08:41.854)

Yeah, it seems like that would be difficult. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It makes sense. Just some early humans sitting around a campfire and they toss some bones over into the bushes and then there's a wolf hanging out and there's one wolf that seems to hang around camp and hey, that wolf barks when bad stuff comes around and hey, that wolf can s apparently smell stuff that lead us to food, maybe. And you can see how over thousands of years that wolf became the dog that's curled up in the next room over here by me. So

Pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (09:12.966)

So let me clear, we've interwoven a couple things. I I've heard that all dog breeds originate from wolves. And we've sort of blended wolves and dogs in here. Is that statement true that all dogs are descendants from a wolf?

Speaker 2 (09:33.672)

Yes. Not the not the necessarily the gray wolves we have today, but both grey wolves and dogs descended from a common wolf-like ancestor. So modern gray wolves are dogs' closest living relatives.

Speaker 1 (09:50.112)

Okay. It went as I posed that original question, I said, you know, did the first the connection with humans and dogs asked, is it companionship or is it for hunting purpose? And you correct me, it's like, well, the real question is did humans do it for a purpose or dogs do it for a purpose? So I go back to that original qu when did companionship be a companion?

component of the relationship because I think about I'm I'm absolutely 100% guilty of anthropomorphizing my dogs. When did we start doing that?

Speaker 2 (10:30.21)

I have no idea. I don't know that we'll ever know. But I do think that I I like to talk about co-evolution because it it required certain tolerance on our part to allow those proto-dogs to access our food and get close to our camps. And there are some arguments that humans are naturally attuned to taking care of animals like that and just kind of

humanizing everything like people talk about their roombas and as you know ascribe personality traits to them and

Speaker 1 (11:08.702)

I have never done that, Annie.

Speaker 2 (11:12.27)

We we tend to do that. We see faces in a lot of things like that. That's really inherent to being a human. and one of the arguments is that because our own offspring require so much care that we that there's just this genetic predisposition to find those little things appealing and want to take care of them. And so it's possible that that predilection in people enabled this.

co domestication to happen. But that is that's not my area of expertise.

Speaker 3 (11:46.156)

Earlier when you were talking about how all dogs have descended from some ancestral wolf, I'm thinking of my mom's miniature schnauzers and how far they've come from wolves, and I'm laughing about it. But then as you're sitting there saying that, there was a there was a day or a moment a few months ago when my mom's little miniature schnauzer was laying next to a teddy bear on the floor, and they essentially looked exactly the same. And so it's funny to think how the human need for companionship.

That over thousands of years we have bred that wolf to essentially resemble a teddy bear, because that's what we want out of our dogs. Some what certain people want out of their dogs is just pure companionship and we want them to look like a infant that we can take care of. So not my preference for dogs, but they're they're cute when I go over to visit my mom's house. They're cute.

Speaker 2 (12:35.006)

And behaviorally, you know, the Chihuahuas and the Huskies still have a lot of very common core dog needs. And a lot of the work that I do as an applied behaviorist is trying to teach people about that because problems can crop up when people don't recognize the the dogness of their pets.

Speaker 1 (12:58.04)

Hmm. Well, we're gonna transition to your role as a pet behaviorist. Before we jump into that, I do want to thank once again Purina Pro Plan is the presenting sponsor of On the Wing podcast and the national dog food sponsor of Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever's Wildlife Habitat Mission. my pups have always eaten Purina Proplan from trammel to little winter today.

Not just because Purina supports the wildlife habitat mission of our organization, which is absolutely critically important to me and it should be important to you as well. But what's most important is that Purina Pro Plan is a team of the world's best scientists and nutritionists, including Annie, behind their dog food. Purina Pro Plan was built. It was created. The recipe was made for the working bird dog like yours and like mine.

You can learn more at proplansport.com.

Speaker 3 (14:00.344)

From Pheasants Forever National Headquarters in St. Paul, Minnesota, this is Casey Sill with the Upland Newsroom, delivering top stories from the Habitat Organization and across the American Uplands. We'll lead off today with a Farm Bill update. On August 6th, the Senate Agriculture Committee failed to pass their version of the Farm Bill by a vote of 10 to 11, with differences between Republicans and Democrats focused largely on supplemental nutrition assistance program funding.

The Senate is now adjourned for a five week recess. Senate Agriculture Chair John Bozeman of Arkansas said he will reconvene committee members in September to vote again on his farm bill package, according to a report by Politico.

In other federal news, the U.S. Department of Agriculture recently announced awards for voluntary public access funding. In late July, the Natural Resources Conservation Service, or NRCS, announced funding for 19 different projects through the Voluntary Public Access and Habitat Incentives Program, or VPA HIP. These projects will increase public access to private lands for outdoor recreation while benefiting wildlife habitat farmers, ranchers, and private landowners.

This announcement comes after NRCS announced the availability of $52 million for VPA HIP in April, which is the largest amount of funding in the program's history. Projects will include expanding the open fields for game bird hunters in Montana to at least 28,600 acres, increasing landowner and hunter opportunities through the Illinois Recreational Access Program, enrolling an additional 15,000 acres to the Iowa Habitat and Access Program.

And restoring Minnesota's walk-in access program to over 30,000 acres. The awards will also benefit wildlife habitats, such as in Georgia, where the project will incentivize landowners to improve habitat on VPA hip enrolled land. Pheasants Forever Vice President of Government Affairs, Ariel Wiegard, thanked NRCS Chief Colton Buckley for his commitment to public access, saying, VPA hip is a win for hunters, private landowners, and wildlife. By expanding access to private lands and supporting habitat improvements,

Speaker 3 (16:04.994)

This investment will create more opportunities for upland hunters while delivering meaningful conservation benefits for pheasants, quail, and other wildlife. If you'd like to read the full list of projects, head over to nrcs.usda.gov. That'll do it this week reporting from PFNQF headquarters in St. Paul, Minnesota. I'm Casey Sill.

Speaker 1 (16:27.214)

All right, Annie. introduced ya as the voice of our dogs at Purina. Tell us what pet behaviorist does on a daily basis. Do you have to be in Teams meetings all day like the rest of us?

Speaker 2 (16:41.324)

IDA. Well, there's a there's a lot of Teams meetings. There's a lot of Excel spreadsheets looking at data. but on a deeper level, my role is really to understand what dogs and cats needs are and how they experience the world, and then try to translate those insights for my colleagues so that pets are really kept top of mind in all of Purina products and also some of our outreach efforts, like our work with domestic violence shelters and creating more pet inclusive spaces.

And I am I'm thrilled to be here representing the behavior team, but I am one of eight behavior team members of the company.

Speaker 1 (17:19.854)

So y as I was reading the website in preparation, one of the things said that you've studied is that how the portrayal of animals in media influences public attitudes towards con towards conservation and pet ownership. And that caught my attention. It's like, okay, I it it makes sense you would study the media component, how dogs are portrayed in media, but the word very specifically called out.

conservation. tell tell me a about that. How is how is the conservation component part of your role as a pet behaviorist?

Speaker 2 (18:00.814)

So that work was actually part of my postdoc. So that was a study that I helped analyze and write up on the photographic depiction of non-human primates. So capuchins, lemurs, and squirrel monkeys. and so we showed people photos of those monkeys either with or without a person and either in a very naturalistic forest setting or in an office environment. And we found

That people who viewed the primate in an office setting and in contact with a human were significantly more likely to want that primate as a pet. And they were also less likely to believe that that primate primate was endangered. So seeing seeing these wild animals in human-like settings and in proximity to humans can affect people's perception of their conservation status. And

The opposite was also true. Those monkeys that were depicted without a human in a forest setting were more likely to be described as dangerous. So seemingly people were acknowledging that it was a wild animal.

Speaker 1 (19:06.86)

Hmm. So I'm thinking about think about it in sort of reverse from our perspective. I think about dogs, bird dogs in particular. I and I've been known to say bird dogs are the cocaine of conservation. And I've never used cocaine, and people say, like, Bob, cocaine isn't a isn't a gateway dry. Anyways, that my point is people's love of dogs often is the

Is a very critically important early lever to pull them into a passion for wildlife habitat. You know, we follow our dogs into these beautiful places with a shotgun in our hand to chase birds, but it's that holistic bond of being in this beautiful place and some, you know, dog that we love with people we love in that.

pulls at our heartstrings to be committed to conservation for the birds that live there and for the these places. So it's a little bit I guess in a way it's opposite of yours research, you know, where you're you're studying wild animals and i their human connection sort of distances them from conservation. But I'll argue from our perspective, the connection between the human and the dog actually pulls people to conservation. Does that

make sense l logically from your perspective?

Speaker 2 (20:39.232)

It it does because I think the people that are having those experiences, if you were cons to consider it the equivalent of a snapshot, you're the one taking the picture, right? So the birds you're seeing are in their natural environment without much human contact. So you're getting inundated by that experience. And I think potentially another takeaway from that paper as you get more into that world and become passionate about converse conservation is maybe consider.

when you are sharing messages that are attempting to promote conservation, those messages might be more effective if they use photographs of the birds in their natural habitat without a human or a dog.

Speaker 1 (21:21.902)

I'm I know I'm bouncing around a little bit. tell us back to kind of your day-to-day role, you know, at a dog food company, you know, as a pet behaviorist, I I'm assuming one of your thing what well I know from talk your conversation with Tony again, the the other podcast, you're evaluating a dog's palatability for food.

And I I almost said it, the enjoyment of the food. Like, how do you measure things like well, palatability, I'm assuming, is just plain on consumption, but can you measure an enjoyment? Like I I think about meals that I make, right? And that like I again, I'm anthropomorphizing, like putting it into a dog's like I think there are certain things my dogs like better than others. Is that true? How do you measure this stuff?

Speaker 2 (22:20.492)

Yes. So I I can't get too deep on the palatability measures because a lot of that is proprietary. But broadly speaking, it is absolutely possible to measure things like enjoyment and and even affection without anthropomorphizing. So the way that behaviorists do that, is is first a constant understanding that the answers we can get from these pets are only as good as the questions that we ask. So a lot of my role

involves developing new methodologies? Are there new ways that we can come up with to ask questions of these pets to allow them to give us better answers that are getting closer and closer and closer to the truth? And so most of those measures are going to be ideally a combination of behavioral measures like consumption, for example, and physiological parameters. So behavioral measures are things like body language,

and other behaviors. And then on the physiology side, we're offering measuring things like stress via cortisol that might be collected from the blood or the urine or the saliva or the feces or the fur. We can do things like look at the temperature changes in their ear through thermographic readings and associate a lowered temperature with an increase in stress, for example,

We can look at measures like heart rate and heart rate variability and those technologies are just getting better all the time. so we're we're looking at at both physiological and behavioral measures and and looking at those at the same time to see if they're telling the same story. And then there are also some more complex behavioral tasks that get at be higher order things, like a negative cognitive bias, for example. So if you teach dogs that they're gonna get a really great treat on one side of the room.

and a you know, no treat on the other side of the room. If you put an a bowl in the middle, do they react as if it's an empty bowl or as if it's a bowl that has a treat in it? And that can be a measure of of their kind of emotional state and their cognitive bias. So there's there's all kind of crazy things that we can do to try to get at how our dogs and cats are feeling.

Speaker 3 (24:36.426)

I I think this was mentioned in Tony's podcast as well, but I'm gonna bring it up again. are Labradors disallowed from doing this kind of work because they will eat literally anything?

Speaker 1 (24:46.862)

I can answer that one, Casey. Yes. Yes. They're disallowed. No, I'm sorry, Eddie. Go ahead.

Speaker 3 (24:52.92)

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:53.774)

I'm honestly not sure if I'm allowed to say which the methods that we have are refined enough that even dogs with a reputation for eating everything, we are able to determine preference.

Speaker 1 (24:56.174)

Hay

Speaker 3 (24:56.473)

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:10.666)

Okay.

Speaker 1 (25:12.686)

But what you're alluding to, you know, having fun, but there's there is there's profiling of breeds for a reason, right? There's natural tendencies and it that's that's taken to into account when you're assessing some of this. Like certain breeds have a tendency to be, I'm assuming, more affectionate. They're you know palatability is less of an issue, right? Like the

That is a role here where breeds and knowing the breed that you're studying is an important component, correct?

Speaker 2 (25:47.64)

Yes and no. So we do consider breed as a a factor in statistical analyses, for example, and it does contribute to some variability in the data. But both Pirina's work and the broader scientific literature really supports that the breed differences aren't as important as you might

Thing. there are a few exceptions, a few behaviors that have stronger breed links than others. But it can be challenging to study because our expectations of how our pets are going to behave shape their behavior. So a lot of the breed differences that you hear about from owners, there's nothing else because some of those are kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy and that

Speaker 1 (26:39.95)

She's looking at you, Casey.

Speaker 3 (26:42.752)

Well yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:46.156)

I'm sorry to interview.

Speaker 2 (26:47.544)

Yep. And and you know, if those same breeds of dogs were raised in a different environment or a more controlled environment, a lot of those breed differences might disappear or become a bit more muted. So it's it's definitely an interaction effect.

Speaker 1 (27:01.89)

Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:03.032)

That answers a questi like the next question I had written down is I have you know, I was just in thinking about my dogs, it seems like both of them fit the stereotype of the breed. And I was wondering how much of that is real and how much of that is me just projecting on them. So it sounds like I'm just projecting.

Speaker 2 (27:25.058)

So it and again, gen you know, genetics is not my area of expertise, but in general, the literature over and over indicate that that genes probably have less of an impact on your dog's behavior than you think. the latest study I saw was something like nine percent of the variability in behavior could be ascribed to genetics.

and as I said, some traits are considered more heritable than others, but those tend to be like motor patterns, like like the ability to point, like the tendency to retrieve. But with those more complex behaviors and certainly general temperament overall, there's often as much variability between breeds as there is within a breed. And so I I I really think genes are just a small piece of the puzzle. And I tend to think about any given trait.

as existing on a a dial. So you can turn it, you know, from low on one side to high on the other. And you can consider the genes starting that needle at one point on the dial. So retrievers are going to start, you know, when it comes to something like bidability, for example, or trainability, they might start at an eight, where a husky might start at a three just from their genes alone. But every experience they have throughout their lives,

All of the training that you put into them is going to continue to twist that dial and move that needle either up or down. So it may take less work or different work to get your lav to a 10 in retrieving. but just because a husky starts a lot lower doesn't mean that with the right amount of work and really twisting that dial, that you couldn't get at least some huskies up to a 10 as well. In fact, I I saw a

post on social media about a husky that his name was Timber and he worked with a local retriever club and hunts and he can work in much more challenging conditions than your average lab. So his owner was really excited about that. So it's it's certainly not genes aren't setting anything in stone in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (29:36.686)

Yeah, I mean we have a a a mutual friend of the organization, Dave Simonet, who's the leader of tramp or the lead singer Trample by Turtles, heard a conversation I had with Tom Dawkins, one of the Perina pro staffers and about dog training. And his dog Herbeck is a rescue. No idea the background. there's probably some German shepherd in there, but no idea. And he's in we talked about

You know, could you train a non hunting breed to hunt? And Tom Dockin did. Over the course of a couple of sessions, Herbeck has become an absolute bird hunting machine. And it is at you know, I've been on enough hunts with, you know, you got my short hairs and you know, different dogs in the field, and then here comes Dave and

You know, this dog that's clearly an amalgamation of variety of things and it's just leading the pack, you know, out there flushing birds and retrieving and and very obviously to me, it just enjoying the hell out of it. You know, you it ears are pricked that you know, everything tells me in the body language that that dog was born to do this and then loves it. So it it goes to your point, like.

Yeah, there's some that have the genetic makeup like already at a eight, nine or a ten, and s others that you know, they maybe are born at a three, but they can grow into a ten with a little bit of nurturing in the right conditions, right?

Speaker 2 (31:16.373)

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (31:18.398)

all right, let's let's transition to a little bit more training talk for for the bird hunter and talk about the world of hunting through a dog's brain. I want to thank guys we head that direction on X Hunt. for most of us, the waiting season is almost over. The dogs are restless, you're restless. You're looking at the August roadside counts.

And we're counting down the days when we can open up those kennels and let the dogs charge into the field ahead of us. It's time, absolutely time to put the boat away, you know, pull the put those reels away and storm for the winter. Hunting season is just about here. And it's also time for you to open up the Onyx app and start finding new opportunities. Research new properties and build your plan.

For the fall. The best seasons don't start on opening day. They start right now with Onyx Hunt. All right, Annie. are you a bird hunter, Annie? Do you do you hunt? You work with a lot of folks who do, particularly Carl and and his crew. and you probably know that at least in my biased ex estimation, the folks that

Speaker 2 (32:30.154)

No. Okay.

Speaker 1 (32:45.294)

Have dogs that they hunt with, working dogs, they have just an incredibly strong bond with these pups. you know, the days of dogs living in, you know, a shed out back or a run out back are largely over. The these dogs are part of our lives, part of our families, and they have really strong connections with the entire family, good and bad, right? But

I I'm curious if for you to help us understand how dogs learn. So I I'm gonna leave that question really vague and let you kind of take it from here. Like i explain the dog's brain to us a little bit.

Speaker 2 (33:34.286)

So this this could be a whole podcast, but in a nutshell, so there are some main mechanisms by which dogs can learn about the world. the first is classical conditioning. So this is when something that the dog feels say neutral about, like a bell in Pavlov's famous experiments is paired with something that the dog has a natural response to. so like

something like a treat or food that they are naturally excited about or will start drooling in response to, for example. And so when you when you pair that unconditioned stimulus with the conditioned stimulus over and over again, you will actually change the way the dog feels about that formerly neutral stimulus. And now they will react to it as if it was a treat. And so this sounds simple enough. It doesn't require like real cognitive

processing in the way that we often think of it, but it is an incredibly powerful tool in behavior modification. And it can be happening even if you don't realize it's happening. So a lot of the problems that I see are because people aren't aware that they're actually teaching their dog in those moments. But this this process of classical conditioning can be happening at all times. Then another way that dogs learn is another form of associative learning called operant conditioning.

So this is when a behavior is paired with an outcome. And this is the model that most dog trainers are very familiar with. It's the four quadrants of positive and negative reinforcement and punishment. And a lot of lay people are confused about what that means. So positive reinforcement training is positioned as an outstanding method. It results in

Great welfare for the dog, it's very effective, but that is not why it's referred to as positive reinforcement. So in this operant conditioning context, positive just means that something is being added to the environment, and negative means that something is being removed from the environment. And then by the same token, reinforcement is done with the goal of increasing a behavior, and punishment is done with the goal of decreasing a behavior. So

Speaker 2 (35:59.374)

Positive reinforcement is you capturing a behavior that you want to see again. You're trying to increase that behavior, you're trying to reinforce it. And you do that by adding something like a treat or praise or access to a toy for the the dog in order to increase the likelihood of that behavior happening again. Positive punishment is capturing a behavior you don't want the dog to do. And so you add an aversive stimulus to try to decrease the likelihood that that happens again. So that is like a a shock.

on a knee collar or if you knee the dog when they jump up on you, you are adding something they don't like to try to reduce that that behavior from happening again. And then you can also reinforce and punish negatively by removing something from the environment. So negative reinforcement is something like trying to increase the likelihood of them walking at your side using leash pressure. So when they are willing to slow down and take a step back, they remove that pressure from their neck.

So you're trying to increase that nice heel behavior. And then negative punishment is removing something the dog likes to try to decrease the behavior. So that would be like ignoring your dog if they are barking and jumping all over you. You're taking away your attention. And science says that that the most effective way to teach a dog is positive reinforcement. It's a lot easier for dogs to learn what they're supposed to do than it is to learn what not to do. I liken it to.

trying to get directions from a friend while you're driving to a restaurant. If you pull up to a four way stop and your friend is telling you, Yep, go left, yep, go straight, yep, go right, you're gonna get there a lot faster than if they're trying to teach you by letting you go whichever direction you want and then punching you if you

Speaker 1 (37:48.046)

You haven't driven with Ryan. Sometimes he needs to be punched.

Speaker 2 (37:55.87)

Other ways that people forget about the dogs can learn are social learning or imitation learning. So by watching either a human or another dog perform the behavior, they're very, very good at that. They're paying so much attention to us at all times. And then there is also what's called insight learning. this is kind of that eureka effect where they just figure it out. and there is some evidence that dogs have a really positive emotional response to

figuring it out themselves, that it really improves their welfare. And we start to see some of those behaviors I talked about earlier, those positive behaviors go up. And so there is definitely value in in s letting dogs figure stuff out for themselves sometimes too.

Speaker 1 (38:38.242)

Huh. So so if I'm keeping my notes correct, there's four different methods. So that we got classical conditioning, which is kind of the Pavlov's dog experiment that you talked about. Very y you were in great depth with operational conditioning, the positive and the negative. It's sort of the where I perceive the training world to live. Social conditioning, social, what was the right imitation.

social and imitation learning. And that's interesting because there's all there's schools of thoughts about should I let my young puppy or my young dog hunt with my older dog to learn and there's difference like absolutely believers in that and then there's people are like do not do that. And then the the fourth insight learning which I equate and you correct me if I'm wrong is sort of

Cognitive ability, like what we think about as human beings, where we like we've problem solving. We've given a problem, try to figure it out. I think about trying to do that with a dog, like finding a cripple, using their nose to find a track, use wind conditions, and like you know, use their nose to their brain to figure out.

where that bird is to bring it back. Is that an accurate assessment of that insight learning?

Speaker 2 (40:13.954)

Yeah, I think so.

And then I think as they get so they're the initial insight learning is probably them figuring out that that's what you want them to do. And then once they reach the bird, I assume for a lot of dogs that is going to be an inherently pleasurable experience. And so you have some classical conditioning happening. and then as they as you reinforce that behavior yourself and encourage it over and over again, then that

becomes operant conditioning. So I mean, learning is is complicated. There's a lot of these happening at the same time in in many cases, especially when you're talking about a behavior as complex as as hunting.

Speaker 3 (40:59.116)

I think you can see that in real time, right? As your dogs, as you go from having a really young dog who might in a training session blow through you know, a scent drag or finding a bird the first, you know, when they're eight months old a year, and you watch you can then you can watch that progression by by the time they're four, they're through repetition, they're like, I know how to do this, right?

Speaker 2 (41:26.424)

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (41:28.362)

So that thing do you think like dog

Speaker 3 (41:31.822)

Dogs can anticipate where they will find birds in a landscape based on where they have found him in the past. Like I know as a hunter, a lot of times I'll stand in the, you know, the parking lot on some public ground and kind of survey the landscape and be like, okay, we're probably gonna find birds there, there, there. And sometimes I'm right, most of the time I'm wrong. But you let your dog loose, are they sort of taking in all the you know stimulus around them and thinking, okay.

There's my objective right there. I'm gonna go check there. And then I'm gonna run over to that objective. Is that sort of how they can work a landscape to to find something they're looking for?

Speaker 2 (42:10.25)

I think that would be a fascinating study to to perform. I suspect that like like most things, it could vary by dog. I also think the tough part about that kind of study would be removing any odor cues because dogs have such incredible noses, it's hard for us to even wrap our heads around what that sensory experience is like for them. So to answer that question definitively, I would want to set up an experiment where there were no bird odor cues.

And instead it was just environmental, like visual cues that look more like a bird habitat versus not, to see if if they had that kind of learning. But I think that's a really good question.

Speaker 1 (42:51.616)

So it that leads into a question that I'm gonna ask that's probably impossible for you to answer, Andy. what does a pheasant, a quail, or sharp tail smell like to a dog? Because i as I l as I watch it happen, their the dog's tail goes crazy, their excitement level.

Like, can you put into words what that smell means to a bird dog?

Speaker 2 (43:25.07)

Cannot devastatingly science cannot answer that question yet. But I man, I hope we can someday. They just a team developed some goggles recently for humans to wear that let you see the world through a cow's eyes and they're using it to train people that work at slaughterhouses, for example. I just think that is so cool. I would love us to get to a point of okay, visual acuity of a dog, fine, but if we could somehow understand what

They can smell. That would just be amazing. But I can tell you that dogs are smelling many more components of that bird than you are. So I think the classic example is that when where we smell a cake baking, the dogs are smelling the eggs, the flour, the sugar, the butter. And so the same thing is going to be true of the quail. The other thing that the quail smells like to them is that they can likely tell a lot more about that bird.

than we would ever be able to. So the odor of it might be telling the dog how long the bird spent at that spot, maybe their stress level, their breeding condition, those kinds of things might be information available to the dog based on their odor. And then just talking about learning, the other thing that that dog might smell like or that bird might smell like to the dog is kind of a combination of the experiences they've had with

other birds. So it is likely cuing the emotional states that they experience when they've hunted in the past. And so all of those hopefully positive associations are going to be part of that experience as well.

Speaker 1 (45:03.31)

So that opens up the most controversial question that's gonna come out of this podcast this year. I am a believer that certain very seasoned, let's say, smart intellectual dogs have the ability to distinguish between a rooster pheasant and a hen pheasant. And my thought process here is you know, a dog that's

you know, getting up there and experience eight, nine, ten years. And you know, that a dog that has pointed roosters and it happen you know, the hunter shoots, who's rewarded with a retrieve and feathers in the mouth, or where a hen gets up after a point, flies away, no shot, no reward. That there invariably is a smell difference between a female and a male pheasant.

And a dog that's had enough experience under their belt with the difference between the two and locks up on point and can I believe the some dogs have the ability to smell the difference and know this stock still rigid, like this is a rooster, and it they can tell the difference when they go on point. Am I full of

i i i is that just a a a belief of a you know a a mind that's very, very weak or is there something to that?

Speaker 2 (46:41.024)

No, I don't think that is a I don't think that's a stretch at all. I don't have an answer for you, unfortunately. That has not been studied as far as I know. but I think that that would be a a fascinating study subject and should be fairly easy to assess, if not the the behavioral differences, but just being able to ask dogs whether they could tell the difference between a male or female bird should should be studiable. I would love to see someone do that work.

Speaker 1 (47:11.054)

Me too. I saw you shaking your head. You don't believe it, do ya?

Speaker 3 (47:16.982)

I don't know. There's a lot of questions. Like what why would a female pheasant smell different than a male pheasant, like from an evolutionary standpoint? Why would the dog I actually you did make a good case for like why a dog might select a rooster over the hen because there's a a reward or not a reward. I think some people would probably argue is a retrieve actually a reward for the dog or not? I've heard some trainers say that it's not.

Speaker 1 (47:19.566)

But why

Speaker 3 (47:46.915)

I don't know if I agree with that either. I don't know, I have more questions than answers, but it's a interesting scenario, something to think about. So

Speaker 1 (47:51.294)

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:55.298)

The chemical makeup the of a female, a hen, is donst demonstrably provably different than a male. Like all of our chemistry is different, but based on gender, isn't it?

Speaker 3 (48:11.778)

That's what I that's what I thought about, right? Is like that based on what Amy just said, that would have to lead to some sort of difference. Well, I shouldn't say have to. It could lead to some sort of difference in scent. Yeah. I

Speaker 1 (48:24.354)

And again, I I do want to put that caveat. Like I'm not saying a two-year-old just learning the ropes is going to be able to differentiate the difference. But you think about some of like the top of the top bird dogs that you've hunted with over the years. And again, you know, this is very specific to pheasants, because we're not shooting we are shooting males and females in the quail and the grouse world.

But when you're talking very specifically to a pheasant dog, I think there is a one percenter out there that, you know, the Michael Jordans and the LeBron James of bird dogs that can tell the difference. all right. I I r re I I think it was a CBS Sunday morning report a few years ago where they were studying dogs. So it wasn't, I don't remember exactly what breed it was. It wasn't

restricted to bird dogs, but this particular dog, they assessed new 400 different words. And for a lot of folks that's that's mind-numbing. Like how on you know, but to me it's like, well I I think that that's I I can wrap my head around that. Like how is there a way to assess how intelligent dogs could be like their aptitude?

Speaker 2 (49:52.258)

So I know that stories like that get a lot of attention because those are stories of dogs exhibiting intelligence that looks a lot like our version of intelligence. And I would argue that that is not a very fair way to even frame the conversation. I don't think that dogs have to be able to perform human things in order to have intelligence.

dogs in short, I believe are way smarter than we think they are, way more capable of stuff than we are even aware. You know, we we don't have the way to ask them the kinds of questions that allow them to tell us how smart they are right now. one reason is because we are operating at a deficit. our noses are terrible compared to dogs' noses. And so we are cutting them off.

From an entire kind of smarts because we actually aren't smart enough in that regard to ask them those kinds of questions. but we do know that dogs are consistently monitoring and adapting to our emotional and attentional states, much more so than we are to theirs. So in that way, they are outperforming us. and I think that those, this is kind of getting back to the the more human-like intelligence, but

Those talking pet buttons are becoming very popular. People are recording their dogs all the time and uploading videos of their dogs making new combinations of words and asking for things in unexpected ways and just showing a kind of sophistication of very human communication that I don't think a lot of people realize they would be capable of. And their ability to do that, you know, certainly they are.

this is more and more evidence that they seem to be better at communicating with us and reading our communication than the average person is at understanding canine communication.

Speaker 1 (52:02.542)

Well, two things. No firstly, I've heard that there's two animals that will follow a human being pointing at something. elephants and dogs. Like they will look where a human is pointing. Is that true based on your knowledge, your experience? Have you ever heard that before?

Speaker 2 (52:23.414)

not as familiar with with elephants. I do know I hope this is loud. Cats will do yes.

Speaker 1 (52:29.135)

really? Okay. We'll delete that part out of the podcast.

Speaker 2 (52:34.03)

But dogs absolutely can. And what's fascinating about Dods's ability to do that is that they will do it as very young puppies and all it takes is just a little bit of experience with people. They seem kind of innately tuned to performing that behavior. Wolves can be trained to do it if they are highly socialized with people for their entire lives, but they're still not as good at it as dogs are. and our closest living relatives, the chimpanzees.

Speaker 3 (52:34.443)

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:03.276)

are not very good at it at all, even with significant training.

Speaker 1 (53:07.17)

when I think about senses, I think humans we rely so heavily on our s sense of sight eyesight, visual. I'm assuming dogs, it's number one is their nose, right? Sense of smell. That's what they see the world through, quote unquote see. They experience the world through their nose. Is that accurate?

Speaker 2 (53:34.69)

That's that's the primary sense for sure. I of course they rely on on vision and their sense of hearing as well. but their their sense of smell is I would say their primary sense.

Speaker 1 (53:46.13)

And you know, there's all kinds of stories about dogs being you know, we talk about you know, hen rooster or hens versus rooster, but I mean they can smell blood sugar through I'm a type one diabetic. They can smell blood sugar highs and lows by just being around a person, right? They can smell cancer, they can smell detect drugs. yeah, what what's what's the next frontier of the use of dogs that

You know, you you you know, we haven't even thought about yet.

Speaker 2 (54:18.286)

I mean, I really think sky's the limit. I think the challenge here is on our side to figure out how to train the dogs effectively for whatever target odor we're thinking of. you know, it's cause that can be hard to do. Their sense of smell is so good. And again, ours is so bad that we can think we're training them on one thing and they're actually picking up on something else. One of my favorite examples of this is a group that was trying to train dogs on the odor of cadavers.

For you know, crime. But they realized that they hadn't trained the dogs on the odor of cadavers. They had accidentally trained the dogs on the odor of disturbed dirt because they were burying the scent items in the ground. And the dogs actually had learned to detect the smell of recently overturned dirt, and we're not were not being trained on the odor of cadavers. So

Speaker 1 (54:50.158)

Seems

Speaker 2 (55:16.908)

The way you set up the training has to be so carefully controlled. And that's a really tough thing to do, especially as you're getting into more and more complex types of things you're trying to get the dogs to target. Wow.

Speaker 3 (55:29.71)

You know, as you're talking about, you know, the dog experiencing the world primarily through its nose, and I'm thinking about humans experience the world through our eyesight. And then I start thinking about as humans as we age, our eyesight starts to deteriorate, our hearing starts to deteriorate. Does a dog's sense of smell deteriorate as they get older? Is that a common thing that would happen with canines?

Speaker 2 (55:53.708)

Yes, it can, for sure.

Speaker 3 (55:55.99)

Very interesting. And I totally relate to the the training the dogs for the disturbed dirt. my old roommate, we thought we had just tr trained the absolute best shed antler finding dog in the world, hiding antlers in our backyard. And then we took him out for his first shed hunt in the wild and quickly learned that we had trained him to find whatever the scent of our hands had been left on. Because there was a

Great big six point side laying in the middle of a cut bean field and the dog ran past it like a hundred times and we're pointing right at it and it's like, What? It's I don't care. Your sense not on it, so

Speaker 1 (56:30.85)

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (56:31.534)

Yeah. And you know, that in those examples, that doesn't make them bad dogs or, you know, less intelligent. Yeah. And and I'm aware of the irony of using a visual metaphor for this, but that's a blind spot that that we have by our inability to inhabit our dog's sensory world. and but yeah, that's gonna be the biggest challenge.

Speaker 3 (56:39.084)

Bad training.

Speaker 1 (56:53.804)

All right, I'll I'll take us around third base heading towards our close at home. before we go there, I want to make a special announcement on this episode. yesterday, we announced a brand new collaboration with Irish Setter Boots. For the first time ever, you the bird hunter can find boots branded with the Pheasants Forever logo.

We've got a killer collab with Irish Setter Wing Shooters. First ever, they are just coming out, hitting store shelves now. You can check them out for yourself. They'll be on the Pheasants Forever website. You can also find them at Irish SetterBoots.com. Keyword Pheasants Forever. So they're those classic, awesome, beautiful, comfortable Irish Setter wing shooters, and they're branded Pheasants Forever. First time we have ever.

Had a branded boot. and you, the listener, have a chance to win a free pair. Tell me why you need a new pair of these Irish setter and Pheasants Forever hunting hunting boots. Send me a story. 50 words, 200 words. Send me your story why you deserve these boots. Email me at on the wing podcast at pheasantsforever.org. Bye.

August 31st, the end of August, and I'll pick one winner to read on a future episode of On the Wing Podcast. Again, that email is on the wing podcast at pheasantsforever.org, telling me why you need a pair of Pheasants Forever Irish Sing Irish setter wing shooter boots. All right. Wrapping her up here as we take to a close in the spirit of the Dan Patrick show.

What do we learn today, fellas? What what we'll start with Casey. Do you have a final thought, final question you wanna pose to Annie?

Speaker 3 (58:58.818)

Well, my f my final thought as far as what I learned is I just continued to be amazed by the how specific their sense of smell is, right? When we talked about, you know, what what that dog can smell while they're on point, how long a bird's been there, all those other details that you brought up. It's I don't think there's any more burning question in the mind of bird dog owners and bird hunters anywhere than

God, I just want to know what that thing smells like. You know, I mean, I've thought about it my whole life. So, and I to hear some of those details that that they learn is or that they can smell is pretty amazing. And then the practical application of that is you you talk about our blind spot of because of our sense of smell is so terrible. How that, you know, I will definitely be thinking about that in training going forward. That's not something that I've ever really I mean.

I know that we have a bad sense of smell compared to them, but I've never really utilized that knowledge in a training session or how I train a dog. So I think it's just super valuable to to learn more details about how that nose actually works. It will never until the day I die, it will continu continue to just absolutely amaze me what what they can do. I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:00:17.326)

Sparks, your final thought.

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:00:24.6)

Hunters often talk about this partnership that we feel between us and our dogs and that we feel like we are communicating without saying anything a lot of times when we're in the field or even sometimes just around the house and stuff. Is that something that we are just constructing in our minds to tell ourselves we have this wonderful relationship with an animal?

Or is there is there really something going on right there? Cause I think a lot of hunters would say, I've really felt that. I would say I've really felt that. But it wouldn't surprise me if also if you told me, Yeah, you might just be making that up. But I'm curious to get your okay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01.004)

You have really felt that. cool. Dogs are, you know, the the words that we're using, we need those. Dogs are picking up on your facial expressions. They can smell if you're stressed out or if you've had a lot of exercise that day. yeah, they're they're picking up on all of those cues. And so if you are being intentional about trying to communicate something with your dog, they are on board with it. And and that bond

Is very real. Yeah. As I said, we've been co-evolving with them for thousands of years. They are getting a lot out of that relationship too. One of my favorite fun facts about dogs is the existence of the oxytocin loop. so oxytocin is is known as the cuddle hormone. It's those warm, fuzzy feelings that you feel when you look into the eyes of a loved one or when a a mom holds her newborn baby, and that you feel when you look into the eyes of a beloved dog. And

What's really cool is that not only is oxytocin released in us when we look at our dogs, but it is also released in the dog when they look at us. So that that bond is very, very real.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08.716)

You i a little bit earlier, Ryan, you talked about the debate of a retrieve being a positive or a negative. I I guess my assessment and Annie can maybe can validate this, is it does depend probably on the dog and the experience that that dog has had with retrieving. For for some dogs, it is pure reward. For other dogs that have been trained in a more negative way.

Then it potentially isn't as positive. That accurate assessment, Annie?

Speaker 2 (01:02:43.244)

Yes, I agree with that completely.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45.202)

I I I don't mean to take us into a morbid place at the end, but I was thinking about I have a beloved dog that passed away last year, and invariably we all experience the passing, the death of our dog that we care so much about. And we I think all struggle with what the right what what we can do to be right by that.

dog that's been so loyal and loving to us in in terms of their their passing. Is there any coaching or advice you can give in terms of the, you know, being with the dog as they pass away? Is that important as opposed to, you know, being in the vet's office doing, you know, the assisted in your home? Like i I I know this this is a downer way to end a episode, but it's something we all

struggle with and it I think is incredibly important to all of us to do it do right by our dogs that we love so much. Help us out with that. Is there anything you can offer as advice?

Speaker 2 (01:03:55.426)

Yeah, I appreciate that question. And I know it's a a downer topic, but the fact that we have the ability to manage that experience for our pets is really one final gift that we can give them. and there there hasn't been much research on this, unfortunately. So what I'm sharing is my personal opinion. but I think that when it comes to those end of life decisions,

A lot of people struggle with being concerned that they're letting go too soon and they are worried that they'll they'll miss, you know, some good days that might be left. then in my opinion, better better a month, six months too early than a day too late. because if if there is any suffering involved, if it happens too early, all that suffering is yours to bear.

your your pet isn't experiencing that anymore. You've shifted the burden entirely to you. dogs aren't aren't looking forward to things in the same way that people are. They really live in the moment and that can be challenging sometimes, but that can also be really lovely. And so when it comes to those end of life decisions, prioritizing giving them the best moments and the best quality over quantity of life can be really important.

it can also be helpful as the dog starts to to head on that decline to try to be a bit more objective about it. so keeping a journal is something I've done and keeping track of like rating their quality of life. So are they having any difficulty breathing? Are they still eating normally? Are they willing to get up and move around? Are they enjoying their favorite games? being able to see it in black and white over time can help you be a little bit more clear-eyed about the

actual quality of life your dog's experiencing and the rate of the decline. Thank and then once you've yeah once you've made that decision, I am a big fan of staying with the dog. they absolutely do have that bond with you. They are likely comforted by your presence. and so I think that is definitely the way to go. in terms of whether that happens at a clinic or at home, I think it depends on what the dog would be the most comfortable with.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18.754)

And then the other thing that happens with with a lot of dog-owning households is that dog is one of a few or several that you might have at home. And we know that the dogs that are left behind do experience behavior changes consistent with grief when they lose a canine companion. And so I always make sure that I bring home either the blanket that the dog that passed away was laying on or the collar they were wearing after it's been

with the dog after they passed away, so that the dogs that are at home can smell that that dog has passed. And as I said, there's no evidence that this helps in any way. But in my experience, it feels like it it might help. And so it's worth worth that little bit about.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05.134)

I've always suspected that they went through a moment of a a time of grief. They you know, the pack dynamic has changed. That has definitively been proven.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18.344)

yes, there were there are more and more studies coming out showing you know, and and we can't go so far as to say they are experiencing grief in the same way we are, but man, their behavior changes are very consistent with an animal that is missing something.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37.206)

That may be the most powerful component of this conversation, 'cause we all deal with that. Thank thank you for sharing that guidance. Like we I think we all you know, a hundred percent want do right by these dugs that we have given us so much. And it's a struggle for everybody to figure out how to do that in their final stages. as we wrap up, Annie, first of all, thank you. Thanks for sharing this time. It's been very

Very insightful. I think it's been very helpful to to see the world through the the nose the to experience the world through the the nose of our bird dogs. Any final thoughts or things that we missed that you'd like to touch on before we let you get on with your day?

Speaker 2 (01:08:25.917)

No, I just wanna say thank you. I've you know, I've been on a few podcasts and I don't think I've ever been asked these questions before. So I appreciated the opportunity to to go down a few rabbit holes that I don't normally get to.

Speaker 1 (01:08:40.526)

Cool. Well thank very much. go ahead, Casey.

Speaker 3 (01:08:43.8)

Sorry, I just have one really quick like follow-up question. Like one last thing I want to get in. How can I find definitive scientific proof that labs are better than short hairs?

Speaker 1 (01:08:58.318)

You don't need to answer that, Annie. Don't answer that. All right. Casey, see me in my office after we're done.

Speaker 3 (01:09:03.873)

Yeah, I just wanted to throw that in.

Speaker 3 (01:09:09.366)

Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12.558)

For Casey Sill, for Ryan Sparks, and very especially thank you to Annie Valuska. Thank you for listening to On the Wing Podcast. I'm Bob St. Pierre, reminding you to always follow the dog. Something good will rise. Thanks, folks.